IN THE ROOM with Matt Borne (WWE’s Doink, WCW’s Big Josh)

This week IN THE ROOM, as heard on WEXP Philly and, former WWE star Matt Borne (Doink The Clown) stops by for a controversial episode. Find out Matt’s thoughts on everything from Doink impersonators to Hulk Hogan, The Warrior, Shawn Michaels, Scott Hall, and his failed chance at main-eventing WrestleMania IX. Plus, Matt has some choice words for Brady … and Brady and DJ delve into Raw with Muppets, the Bret vs. Shawn DVD, and CZW’s and ECWA’s upcoming shows. If you’re interested in CZW tickets for 11/12 in South Philly, call in to the show next Tuesday LIVE, 10 PM EST at (609) 755-5ITR.

17 Responses to IN THE ROOM with Matt Borne (WWE’s Doink, WCW’s Big Josh)

  1. Avatar Vince G
    Vince G says:

    A real cool show this week even with the many technical problems at the beginning. A real golden stream.

    Brady, only about 10-20% of my comment on the Bret/Shawn DVD was me on a soap box and not specifically at you (Not all of it at least). The point I tried to make and I think it is one shared by many that have seen it is that whether it was a shoot or a work the whole thing has been one amazing piece of drama with this being a great closing chapter. I look forward to your take on it when you see it but I think either way you will enjoy it.

    I was amazed that DJ has lost some faith in Shawn. I can understand that take on the whole thing but I disagree slightly. I think part of the problem was Shawn didn’t want to overshadow Bret so he let him lay out the main parts of the story and then added his bits here and there. He did use the ” I don’t remember, but I probably did do that…” line a bit much on some parts and that could be because he forgot, he was embarassed or he had been too wasted back then. I put it down to humility.

    My question is does DJ now believe guys like Shane Helms that say HBK is a bullshitter and a hypocrite or what?

    Much like JFK,the moon landings or any other ‘conspiracy’ for every argument one way there is almost always a reasonable counter to it and it just depends what you want to believe.

  2. Avatar Pat Piper
    Pat Piper says:

    After hearing Ratboy’s voice for the first time, it just confirmed what I already thought: your biggest fans are mentally challenged. It just goes to show that two cousins should not smoke crack and have unprotected sex.

  3. Avatar mrakbaz
    mrakbaz says:

    i think hbk is a great in ring talent and hes my favorite next to bret, but i hear all these stories about him being a super jerk, even shane helms the biggest douche that there can be has a problem with hbk, i actually believe helms and what he said about hbk. i would of loved to hear the hacksaw/borne story thats a good one!

  4. I think you guys are hunting for anomalies with this Montreal-Screwjob-being-a-work. A lot of the things that you point out are weird, but they aren’t actually evidence of anything.

    For example, you said that Shawn & co. came out of the same dressing room door into which Davey Boy would later enter. What does that prove? Nothing. It suggests that Bret and Shawn were in the same room together. So what?

    Also, you made a big effing deal about Shawn’s music coming on the moment he won. Again, so what? You don’t think that the guys in the production truck can change and adapt on the fly? You don’t think Patterson or someone else called into the truck and told them to play Shawn’s music the moment the bell rang?

    I mean, any time I hear about the Montreal Screwjob being a supposed work, it always comes down to the same argument. The argument always goes something like this; “Something happened that can’t be easily explained, therefore I think it’s a work/conspiracy.” Any time you try to use things that are hard to explain in order to prop up some meaningless conjecture, you’re anomaly-hunting.

    By the way, I do agree that when Shawn talks, he comes off as though he’s full of shit, but unlike you guys, this isn’t something I’ve just noticed recently. Personally, I’ve never bought Shawn’s transformation to man of God. From my own personal experience, people who claim to find peace and tranquility with the power of God are usually full of baloney. The people I’ve known, who convert to Christianity and say that they’ve turned their life around, usually fall off the wagon pretty hard. Now, I’m not saying that I believe everything that Shane Helmes said about the guy, but I wouldn’t be surprised if at least some of it was true. I’ve always been skeptical that Shawn is a changed man. To me, that means nothing.

    Oh, and you guys asked why anyone should care about the Rock/Cena tag team and upcoming PPV. I’m inclined to agree with you, but I think the more important aspect to all of this is the timing.

    What goes on sale this coming weekend? Tickets to Wrestlemania. What’s the main event? Rock vs. Cena. And coincidentally, these tickets go on sale just six days after Rock and Cena are announced as a tag team. This is WWE experimenting with their fans.

    • Having met Shawn and talked with Shawn, I’m inclined to believe he feels legitimately bad for a lot of his actions when his mind was more clouded. For every Hurricane who has attacked his character, there are dozens of wrestlers who have spoken of Shawn’s guilt and legitimately trying to change, including Bret himself.

      Regarding Montreat ’97 being a work, I agree that a lot of it is circumstantial evidence. Here is what I keep coming back to though:

      ** Bret happened to be filming a documentary as it all went down, and this film included the secret diaglogue between Bret and Vince, blatantly illegal audio considering Vince didn’t know it was being recorded.
      ** The fact that everyone came out of the screwjob for the better.
      — Shawn was now the top heel.
      — Vince used the momentum for his program with Austin.
      — Bret became the most sympathetic wrestler in the industry, and was rewarded with a bigger WCW contract.
      — Owen became a WWE main-eventer (even though it failed).
      — Earl Hebner became the most reconizeable referee in history, with instant heat.
      ** A future program – when Bret returned in three years – would have been the most profitable program in wrestling history.
      ** Bret destroyed thousands of dollars worth of equipment and assaulted Vince without any legal action taken.
      ** The cameras staying with Bret after everyone else left, even filming him drawing WCW with his finger.
      ** The fact that several in the industry have indicated they were told it was a work, including Kanyon and Steve Corino.
      ** The fact that Bret would harp on this screwjob all the way until his stroke, after which time he suddenly came to terms and accepted everything that had happened.
      ** The fact that “screwjob” was a term used by Bret on TV up to eight months before the actual screwjob.
      ** Julie Hart’s verbal assualt on Hunter in the documentary, IMO just to give him more heat.
      ** The fact that two heels were fighting in the main event of a major ppv. To my knowledge this never happened before or since. This was only done, IMO, because Bret would be doing a switch on the way out, as he always wanted.
      ** Bulldog and Neidhart – both on their way out of the company anyway because they were too old – were able to attach themselves to Bret in order to get big contracts with WCW as well.
      ** Bret, Shawn, and Vince all got what they wanted. Bret dropped the title without dropping it, Shawn got to be champion, and Vince didn’t have to risk losing or devaluing his title.

      • Avatar Vince G
        Vince G says:

        The problem I have with this is argument that ‘Everyone got what they wanted’ is that would still have been true if it was a legitimate screw job. Vince would still have all the momentum of ‘being the evil boss’, HBK would still have been the top heel, Owen still would have got a short term main event push and then got dumped on and Bret still would have got a multi million dollar contract over at WCW.

        The fact WWF was badly losing in the monday night wars always seems to be ignored because by saying it was all a work you are basically saying Vince gambled his entire company on Austin taking off and becoming the biggest thing in wrestling history whilst at the same time handing over the biggest wrestler on the planet over to the company THAT WAS BEATING HIM ALREADY! I’m not saying that it 100% wasn’t a work but that is essentially what the plan boils down to. Vince would have to have been convinced WCW would fuck up with Bret (which legend says he said to Bret) and that Austin would take off to a level that would surpass WCW/NWO. He also would have had to had Tyson in the works around that time.

        As far as the legal thing goes depending or what contract or agreement was in place a lot of the stuff they recorded they probably could have used with very little worry about what WWF had to say about it.

        If it was a screw job then suing Bret it would have made WWF look very bad. They had just humiliated one of their longest serving employees in front of his home country. By choosing to go after him they would have looked even worse as a company regardless of how it made Vince’s character look. Plus Bret would have had Ted’s billions behind him if he needed. Again WWF didn’t need the added headache of a lawsuit that (they could have lost) during that time because they weren’t doing great financially.

        Last point, as far as it being heel vs heel, it wasn’t. Bret was a hero to the Canadians and a heel to Americans and vice-versa with HBK. Heel/face didn’t really matter just like Rock vs Austin at WM17. The whole point of that era was that fans got behind whoever they liked regardless of them being good or bad. You just cheered who you preferred. A more recent example is Punk vs Cena at MITB and Summerslam. To one demographic Cena was the heel and Punk the face and vice versa for the fruit loop brigade. There was definitive good or bad guy, it was just which side of the fence you were on.

        • I couldn’t agree less, Vince.

          “would still have been true if it was a legitimate screw job.”

          Really? Bret would have gotten what he wanted even though he was screwed? He is on record saying he wanted to hand over the title or lose it to someone else. My contention is he was fine dropping the title as long as everyone understood he didn’t really lose.

          “Vince gambled his entire company on Austin taking off and becoming the biggest thing in wrestling history whilst at the same time handing over the biggest wrestler on the planet over to the company THAT WAS BEATING HIM ALREADY!”

          Vince had to gamble. What wasn’t a work is that Vince couldn’t afford Bret. This also plays into the whole let him leave and when he comes back it’s the biggest money program ever. Also … Bret the biggest wrestler on the planet?! I think that’s more than a slight stretch of the truth.

          “As far as the legal thing goes … they probably could have used with very little worry about what WWF had to say about it.

          It is illegal to record a private conversation without both parties’ consent. Vince, in the documentary, explicitly says to turn the cameras off while they go over the finish.

          “By choosing to go after him [legally] they would have looked even worse as a company regardless of how it made Vince’s character look.”

          WWE’s reputation was going to take a hit, sure, but Bret was still in the wrong. There is no way he would not have been found guilty for costing the company thousands of dollars on his last night, or for assaulting his boss. Coincidentally, where is the footage of Bret punching Vince lol?

          “as far as it being heel vs heel, it wasn’t. Bret was a hero to the Canadians and a heel to Americans and vice-versa with HBK. Heel/face didn’t really matter just like Rock vs Austin at WM17.”

          In WM17, Austin and Rock were both babyfaces. AT MITB11, Cena was positioned as the babyface and Punk as the heel, regardless of who was cheered and who was boo’ed. SS97 is the only time ever when it was two heels facing off like that. I’ll give you the fact it was in Canada blurs the line, but the screwjob certainly accomplished making Bret more of a hero to those who liked him.

          • Avatar Vince G
            Vince G says:

            LOL. I love talking about this. To be honest I’m still not sure either way I just like putting stuff out there. At the end of the day for every piece of evidence that casts doubt one way or the other there is almost a totally reasonable explanation against it.

            I havn’t watched ‘Wrestling with Shadows in almost a decade so I admit alot of what I’m saying is from memory.

            In terms of Bret getting what he wanted, he still didn’t lose to HBK ‘REALLY’, he still got paid and like you said the chance to come back would always be there with the biggest feud in built.

            And when I said biggest wrestler on earth I meant once he got screwed, which I’m pretty sure is something you have said when we discussed this before.

            Yes it is illegal to record people without ‘consent’ but unless we know what agreement WWF had with the film makers before production and afterwards (Vince could easily given consent retroactively) we don’t know just how much was/is illegal or not. According to wikipedia the film was a canadian production and a lot of the events happened in canada so really the whole legality issue is still a major gray area.

            Again he hit Vince and wrecked stuff in Canda plus it is extremely possible he could have gotten away with it under the circumstances. People have gotten off with much bigger crimes than criminal damage with less justification than being humiliated on public television.

            Also (again I can’t remember) whether Bret was still technically under contract by SS97 and if he was whether that contract had a right to veto things he didn’t want to do in which case changing the finish would have counted as a breach on WWF’s part.

            The Punk/Cena thing is a totally different thing altogether. Face and Heel are almost totally interchangeable and have been since the attitude era. Who is the 2nd biggest face in WWE? Orton. Has he done anything to his character since he was the brutal legend killing heel. Nope. Not a thing. But becuase he is cheered now he is ‘face’ .Cena too does heel stuff when it suits him. If you listen to Cole and Lawler niether of them make any wrestler look like a face or a heel its just that people genuinely hare cole so whatever he says they disagree with him which is how WWE build people now. If he said Cena was great and Lawler disagreed where would the WWE universe be then?

            One last question. Don’t you think after everything that has happened since 97(Owen, Bret’s stroke, Shawn+God, Vince beating WCW) that Shawn or Bret would have just admitted it was an angle by now? Would they really want their entire illustrious career to boil down almost entirely to just one night and be remembered largely for the wrong reasons? At the end of it all Bret came back to beat down TNA going live which is really sad for all involved.

            In summation= I’m just playing devils advocate, there is a compelling argument either way, I have skype and a webcam and am fine with coming on the show to thrash this out some more.

  5. Avatar Vince G
    Vince G says:

    Helms argument is a load of crap. It was basically that HBK swore and that he hunts. Now I’m not religious, I havn’t eaten meat in 7 years and have said before I’m not a fan of mid 90’s HBK the character so if there was someone that you would expect to dislike Shawn it would be someone like me. But I don’t. Religion is a complicated issue and unfortunately is often down to how you choose to interperet it. HBK’s version of being Christian clearly doesn’t come in to line with Shane’s. I don’t know if Shane is ‘Christian’ himself. And anyway, Helms said Shawn was his idol or whatever, well it is common knowledge that A) Shawn used to be a real asshole to pretty much everyone while he was drugged up so what version of HBK was Helms hoping to meet? And B) who does Shane Helms hang around with? Jeff and Matt and Shannon Moore none of which can be called paragons of virtue. Shawn did a lot of stupid things but he never made it public the way they have. He was never in motor accidents that (angel blood included or not), he never turned up to a PPV main event and practically just passed out in the ring or badmouthed the company he worked for while he got fat and then jumped ship. Shawn did have the benefit of social media not being around but still. You would think they would have learned from his example instead of recreating it and then calling him a hypocrite.

    • Avatar Jason
      Jason says:

      Vince I replied here since I couldnt under your last post, but Bret was under contract at SS. I think it ran out the following Monday. The creative control was apparently a gray area. His deal wasnt like Hogans where he had complete control. Hogan could just veto anything and he basically booked his own stuff in WCW. Harts was that the two sides had to mutually agree on things as a way to keep the company from doing the usual thing of jobbing you out when you leave. Its something that Im sure would have been difficult to fight in court since wrestling is fake. Its the problem Hogan had in the lawsuit against Russo where the judge couldnt really separate real from fake. There was also the question of what is reasonable. Is it reasonable to ask a guy leaving the company to lose the title when every wrestler in the past has done it? Probably even though Bret would not agree to it. Again it was there to keep Bret from being made to look like a dud on the way out, hence his ability to change a bunch of tag team finishes leading up to SS.

      As the story goes Vince asked Bret to ask Bischoff to allow Hart to remain in the WWF through December 7 and drop the title in a 4 way match to Michaels. Shawn would pin Bret who I guess could save face by being beaten up by the other two (Austin and Taker I believe) to lose. Hart agreed and asked Bischoff who gave him the ok. Vince wanted WCW to not advertise Hart before that and I dont think Bischoff agreed to it and he was going to announce signing Hart. Michaels at that point wouldnt agree either so thats where the handing the belt over at Raw story came from.

      Anyway its probably the most fascinating wrestling story ever and there are only 5 or 6 people who actually know what really happened during those last few weeks of Harts run as champ.

  6. Avatar mrakbaz
    mrakbaz says:

    i think people that jump on the jesus bus are jerks who burned all there bridges, religion is a joke, im sorry if you look at history what is the greatest cause of war and deaths, the crusades, and other wars about proving your god is better then my god, give me a break, i still like hbk as an in ring performer but as a person im sure he is probably a horrible human being, why you got to hunt for food? isnt that killing gods creatures? his wife was a piece of ass though, that nitro bitch goes to church too?

  7. Avatar Pat Piper
    Pat Piper says:

    I’ve always felt that the Montreal Screwjob was a work. It was a way to get the belt off Bret without him looking bad (hey, he didn’t actually submit or get pinned, he was “screwed”) and as a way for Bret to go into WCW has a huge babyface and a rightful world champion (which they screwed up).

  8. Avatar Jason
    Jason says:

    For the longest time I thought Montreal was a work because of much of the evidence Brady laid out. But when Hart never came back after the WCW run and there just seemed to be so many bitter feelings that had nothing to do with his brother dying I changed my opinion on it. It was certainly a strange event. The only thing I would disagree with is that Montreal getting Bret more money. That deal was already done before Montreal. I dont think it got him any more cash though it did get Davey and Neidhart new jobs.

    Im not sure if Smith was on his way out or not. He was still a semi-main eventer and he had originally been promised another big European PPV match with Shawn, this time with Shawn as world champ. I believe that stemmed from the European title win Shawn had over Bulldog where Smith was told he was winning until the day of the event. I think that they had a pass out finish for him to save face because he had dedicated the match to his sister going into it. They convinced him to lose by promising the big headlining match down the line and they was before Bret bailed on the company.

    Id also agree that this was more or less the only heel/heel match I can recall on PPV. They did a few at MSG when I was younger. Most were deep on the undercard where 1 heel was like a glorified jobber with theme music and the other a newcomer on his way up without an established character. They only main event I can think of was Randy Savage vs Bad News Brown right after Savage made the heel turn on Hogan. Savage was like super heel at that point. I dont recall a MSG main event between the two but they did a bunch of matches. WCW had a few through the years. The last might have been the NWO Hogan win over the Giant where I think The Giant was still a heel.

  9. Avatar Jason
    Jason says:

    As for Shawn himself I think there was a big change when he came back. Helms is pretty much the only guy I recall running him down that was aroun. Most of the guys, especially the young ones, all seemed to go to him for advice and looked up to him. Back in the day Shawn used to pretty much get threatened by the other wrestlers all the time. He apparently got roughed up a bunch of times after Nash left since Nash was pretty much his real life bodyguard back in those days. Undertaker used to hate him and that clearly changed.

    As for not remembering I think Shawn was loaded all the time and I think many of these events were not as important to him as they were to Bret. Hart was filming a documentary during alot of this and always planned on a book so I think he kept more records of these things and were also vivid in his mind because he career went in the toilet after Montreal. Bret was unhappy to drop the belt in 1996 and being told to get out of the ring was likely a huge deal to him. Shawn was focused on his future as champ and I cant see why he would remember that at all, especially since the two were not at real odds back then. Bret was mad that the company was being positioned around Shawn, but not so much at Shawn himself in that time. What pissed him off was the fact that Shawns plans were to main event with Nash, Hall, Helmsley, and Kid, especially since it was already common knowledge two of them were leaving. In some ways that was silly since Bret headlined against Owen and Davey pretty often before that, but I guess he felt they earned it and it was not him pushing for it.

    The real villain in all of it was probably HHH. At one point Shawn did give in and agreed to the proposed scenario of a DQ type finish where he would get the belt a few weeks later at a show in Massachusetts. HHH blew up at the notion and got Michaels all pissed off and he went screaming to vince that he had to leave Montreal as champ.

  10. Avatar Kevin McElvaney
    Kevin McElvaney says:

    Twice, I’ve typed out a response to Brady’s post, and twice my browser has lost it. I’m going to add my two cents in on this week’s edition of Bowling Shoe Handsome.

  11. Avatar mrakbaz
    mrakbaz says:

    dont forget too turn in your book reports were doing the hound of the baskervilles by sir arthur conan doyle and wet goddess by malcolm brenner!